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C00002 00002	∂27-Jan-89  1433	G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU 	Usenet and Racism (rec.humor) 
C00027 00003	∂27-Jan-89  1433	G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU 	[Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>: reprieve for rec.humor]
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∂27-Jan-89  1433	G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU 	Usenet and Racism (rec.humor) 
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Date:      Fri,  2 Dec 88 11:28:59 PST
To:        g.gorin@macbeth
From:      "John Sack" <GQ.VVN@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Usenet and Racism (rec.humor)
ReSent-Date: Fri 27 Jan 89 13:53:56-PST
ReSent-From: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>
ReSent-To: jmc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU
ReSent-Message-ID: <12465972827.83.G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>

IR Directors,

The note that is attached is about the bboard called 'rec.humor'
which is part of the standard bboard distribution.  The issue
raised is that some of the contents of that board are offensive to
some because of racial or other types of content, and that such
things ought not take up university resources in their
transmission, storage, etc.  The issue is being raised at the
University of Waterloo.

I am raising it for us because 1) we had an incident on this a
number of years ago here at Stanford -- a SPIRES data base of
thousands of jokes had some that could be considered racially
offensive -- that caused University controversy and eventually
national attention; 2) we get this same bboard on campus; 3) there
is a lot of concern on our campus right now about the institution's
(i.e., the authorities, like us) response to racism and other forms
of discrimination.

It is pretty easy for things like this to blow up very fast, and to
become a cause celebre for various groups.  I know because I was
the supervisor years ago of the person who 'maintained' the jokes
file.  He's still here, but the jokes file is not (to my knowledge)
a University resource any more.

We might want to be aware of this and think some about whether we
have any particular position or action to take at this time.

John

To:  S.STREET@MACBETH, G.GORIN@MACBETH, GD.WHY, AU.RMB

FORWARDED MESSAGE 12/01/88 15:00 FROM GA.JRG "June Genis": the JOKES file
lives!

John & John, don't know if you have notived this bit of contoversy
going on in usenet (as you can see I got this from news.misc not the
actual list in question), but I thought that it might bring back
some memories.  This article sort of summarizes things but as you
can see from the editorial comments (in []) the submitter doesn't
consider it to be sufficiently balanced.  There was a followup item
in news.misc suggesting ways that people might comment back to this
paper.  The gory details are all there in show bb but mostly I've
just skimmed the subject fields.  Enjoy :-) !  /June

To:  GQ.VVN, GQ.JNK

FORWARDED MESSAGE 12/01/88 14:45 FROM GA.JRG "June Genis":

Item: news.misc 2285,  30 Nov 88,  175 lines.    (10 items left)
From: funny@looking.UUCP (Funny Guy)
Subject: KW Record Article on Joke Debate

The following article appears today on the *Front Page* of the Kitchener-
Waterloo Record, the major daily in the town in which I live.

It is reproduced *with* permission. (How often do you see that?)
It may not be reproduced for commercial purposes.

[ In my opinion this is a gross misrepresentation which will possibly
result in not just the downfall of rec.humor.funny, but many other
groups as well.  Further comment follows.  Don't reply to me, yet.]

The Kitchener-Waterloo Record
225 Fairway Rd.
Kitchener, Ont.
N2G 4E5

1-519-894-2231

Wayne MacDonald, Managing Editor
Story Byline: Luisa D'Amato



===========

Editor's note:  As a matter of general policy, the Record does not
publish material judged to be racially offensive.  We have made an
exception in this article because the actual jokes and comments
contained within represent the central issue and are the key
elements in aid of full reader understanding and appreciation.

By Luisa D'Amato
Record Staff

Controversial racial jokes are being sent by computer from Waterloo to
about 20,000 people world-wide, using the University of Waterloo
mathematics computer systems as part of the chain of communication.

From California to Massachusetts to Isreal, computer users are bitterly
arguing about Brad Templeton of Waterloo and whether he ought to be
transmitting jokes that some see as offensive and racist.

Templeton, who owns Looking Glass Software in Waterloo, is the editor
of a computer joke exchange that is part of the USENET computer network.

One recent joke depicts a black man, who is dating a gorilla and isn't
allowed to buy it a drink in a bar.  He dresses, shaves and puts
makeup on the animal, which is then let into the bar and
is mistaken for an Italian woman.

Another joke describes a Jew who is murdered after he tricks a Scotsman
into buying him dinner.

Officials at UW say they are discussing what to do about the fact the
institution carries Usenet -- including the joke exchange.

Templeton said in an interview that he's edited the joke exchange without
pay, as a hobby, since August of 1987.  He said only about 10 per cent
[No, I said 5%] of the jokes he sends out are racially, sexually or
otherwise offensive.

His usual practice with offensive jokes is to put them in code.  Then,
the people who want to read it press a couple of keys to decode it.

He receives dozens of jokes each day from readers and sends out about
two a day.  He said he doesn't judge the jokes based on their content,
but only their comic value.

"Jokes which offend some people do come through," Templeton said.
"It's my belief that it is better to have a world in which we can
laugh at the evil things that are in the world, than a world where we
must carefully consider whether or not anything can offend someone."
[I doubt my grammar was that bad.]

But others don't agree.

"This sort of thing just enhances stereotypes," said Abyd Karmali, who
graduated this year from UW with a chemical engineering degree.  "It
legitimizes having these feelings and sharing them with people.  That
can only be damaging."

Karmali now studies at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.  He
shares an appartment there with another student, Jonathan Richmond, one
of several people who sent messages objecting to Templeton's judgement.

After lengthy debate on this, Templeton sent a joke, in code, entitled,
"Top 10 reasons not to replace Brad as moderator."

Among the 10 reasons: "Kill six million of 'em, and the rest lose their
sense of humor.  Jeez."

Asked about that line, Templeton said, "Mostly I was just making fun there.
That line was sarcasm...  A lot of people wrote back to say that line was
tremendously funny.

"The idea is what you're laughing at is the absurdity of the line; the
absurdity of suggesting that killing six million Jews was something to be
taken lightly.  That's why the 'Jeez' is there.  And so I feel that's
definitely an example of a line where you're laughing at the racist
attitude rather than the race.

Richmond said he sees the joke as an "act of violence" which "defames
the memory" of the Holocaust victims.

"One racist joke disseminates over a network of thousands of people.
It's the promotion of an underground network of bigots," he said.

"People feel that have a different relationship with computers than with
other people," he said.  "They feel that can type on to a keyboard what
they might not say to someone's face."

Meanwhile, Karmali, who was a student residence don and president of the
chemical engineering society while at UW, says his alma mater is
"acting as an accessory" in the matter.

UW gets USENET because many of the network's hundreds of different groups
offer "valuable information" on computer software, said Lyn Williams,
executive assistant to the dean of mathematics.

The university sees itself as a "common carrier" of information, with
no mandate to review information passing through its computer system,
she said.

But she said it would be possible for UW to discard the so-called
recreational services in USENET, such as the joke exchange and tips
on sports and leisure activities.

Alan George, UW vice-president academic and provost, said Tuesday that
he hasn't heard about the controversy, but "I'm certainly going to
ask a lot of questions."

"In some way, the university is facilitating this... and I think, as
such, we'll certainly look into it," he said.

"The university generally would be opposed to any ethnic or racially
offensive jokes."

About 180 people at UW regularly read the joke exchange, Templeton said.
And "no one from Waterloo that has contacted me has expressed anything
but support," said Templeton, who was a UW student in the late 1970s and
early 1980s.

Templeton said he believes the controversy arose because the joke about
the Jew and the Scotsman was transmitted close to the 50th anniversary of
Kristallnacht, Nov 9-10, 1938, when Jewish businesses were gutted and
synagogues burned in Germany.

After Richmond complained, Templeton apologized for having neglected to
put the joke in code.

However, Richmond said that doesn't answer his concerns.  "It's still
there... He has sent it out with the (descriptive) keyword, 'racist'...
He is an editor.  He should not include jokes which are racially offensive.

Richmond, who is Jewish, sent a message to other computer users.  He said
he worked in Watts, the black ghetto of Los Angeles, and "I have
many eyewitness accounts of the hurt caused by racial stereotyping and
by the jokes which promote it."

But many users disagreed with him.  One message from Tel Aviv University
in Israel asked Richmond: "Maybe you should ask yourself why do you
take it so badly; maybe there is something wrong with your sense of
self-identity?"

Another wrote: "My ultimate goal -- to reply to Jonathan Richmond -- is
the elimination of Jonathan Richmond."

--30--

--
The rec.humor.funny fascist.  (Thanks to whoever gave me that title!)


!
To: g.gorin@macbeth
Subject: Deletion of rec.humor
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 88 12:02:14 PST
From: Phil Fernandez <philf@lindy.Stanford.EDU>


Ralph -- 

This morning, John directed me remove rec.humor (and rec.humor.funny?)
from our News server, and noted that you were under the same direction
for your News servers.  I was rather agitated by this decision -- I
think it's ill-informed and arbitrary.  John mentioned that you too
had some unease about this decision.

Do you have any intention of trying to continue discussions on the
topic, or do you plan to just do the dirty deed?  We might as well
coordinate our organizations' actions, in either event, 'cuz there's
going to be some public flack about this decision, and we both might
as well take it at the same time.

Thoughts?

pmf

!
Date: Tue 6 Dec 88 19:49:56-PST
From: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deletion of rec.humor
To: philf@LINDY.STANFORD.EDU
cc: g.gorin@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU

As John reported, I too have misgivings.  Of course, they run both ways:
damned if we do and damned if we don't.

For the moment, I've asked Kathy Derby to investigate what it will take
to shut off the service, so we'll be ready to act when we decide to
do it.   Meanwhile, I'd plead the pressure of other work and plan
to axe it while the students are gone.

I'm certainly going to leave behind traces, perhaps point to bulletin
board in which comments can be gathered.   I think we need to discuss
this face to face before we act.

Ralph
-------
!
Date:         Tue, 06 Dec 88 19:54:55 PST
From:         Kathy Derby <KATH@suWatson.Stanford.edu>
Subject:      Re: [Phil Fernandez <philf@lindy.Stanford.EDU>: Deletion of
 rec.humor]
To:           Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@lear.stanford.edu>
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Tue 6 Dec 88 19:51:45-PST

Ralph - I discussed this with Terry this morning, after our talk last night.
He can stop the feed of this news group to us from LaBrae without major
difficulty.  He says that it would also prevent the feed of the news group
down stream from AIR. However, there is not a simple way to leave notification
of our actions.  I am very hesitant to post it as a system message. If we post
it as an entry to rec.humor and rec.humor.funny, everyone in the world is
notified.  We are exploring other options.

In a conversation with Dan Kolkowitz this afternoon, he expressed a resounding
concern for Bob's decision.  His sentiments echo what Phil stated.

I'm certain that we do not want to get into the censureship business. If we
plug the hole in rec.humor, individuals exposing their racist attitudes will
move the issue to another news group. The problem will end up a moving target.

Kath


!
To: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deletion of rec.humor 
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 88 21:23:59 PST
From: Phil Fernandez <philf@lindy.Stanford.EDU>

I too understand the arguments for deletion.  It's a tough issue, but
looks like we don't have much choice.  Street is not interested in any
further discussion.

Shall I get us together to discuss implementation?  I'll have my AA
call yours.

pmf
!
Mail-From: G.GORIN created at  7-Dec-88 00:36:27
Date: Wed 7 Dec 88 00:36:27-PST
From: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: rec.humor
To: s.street@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU
cc: g.gorin@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <12452458304.36.G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>

Bob,

John McCarthy always warned me about tickling the mule's heel:
usually, it results in being kicked, and it hardly bothers the mule at
all.

I know the removal of the rec.humor bulletin board has been discussed
in the Administrative Council [note: per RLS, it was discussed in
President's Staff].  I also understand the expediency of decisions by
the committee of one.  Moreover, I have heard that you consider the
matter closed.  I apologize for continuing the discussion: I have to
get my kicks somehow.

Please consider: no positive strokes accrue to us from taking this
action without broader discussion.  The communities whose
sensibilities we purport to respect are as yet unaware of any problem.
By acting without the involvement of the affected communities,
we display a thorough disrepect for their abilities and
concerns.  They will hardly rush to show appreciation of our
paternalism.  Everyone else will be on the freedom of expression
bandwagon.  Lots of tar and feathers for everyone in IR.  Ugly scene.

I don't know precisely how to do this, but I want to turn this
situation into another occasion for education, in which racism and
other forms of bigotry are once again hauled out into the sunlight,
scrutinized by the community, and recognized for the hateful things
that they are.  And then to involve the community in the nub of the
problem, no easy matter: how to balance our abiding concern for human
dignity against the right of free expression that we cherish.

The fact that we're having difficulty with this question, means that
this situation represents a real educational opportunity that can
broadly involve the Stanford community.

I recognize that the discussion I propose will take our energy.
The action we presently intend will ensnare us in a different
discussion, one to which we'll come wearing egg on our face.

I would take responsibility for leading that discussion.  I propose to
start in January.  Meanwhile, I would counsel that no action be taken
on rec.humor.

I will, of course, do as you direct.

Ralph
-------

∂27-Jan-89  1433	G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU 	[Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>: reprieve for rec.humor]
Received: from MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 27 Jan 89  14:33:08 PST
Date: Fri 27 Jan 89 13:54:50-PST
From: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: [Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>: reprieve for rec.humor]
To: jmc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <12465972989.83.G.GORIN@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>

Mail-From: G.GORIN created at  7-Dec-88 15:37:42
Date: Wed 7 Dec 88 15:37:41-PST
From: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: reprieve for rec.humor
To: gq.vvn@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU, philf@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU
cc: gd.why@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU, au.rmb@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU,
    g.gorin@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <12452622370.151.G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>

Folks,

I spoke with Bob today and proposed a different strategy for dealing
with this issue.  He agreed.  For the moment, we need not purge
rec.humor.funny from our computers.

It may be moot.  Dan Kolkowitz reports that Labrea isn't getting any
items for that group fed to it.

My message to Bob follows.  I apologized in person to Bob for the
implied analogy.  But I need to get my kicks.

So that we may progress on this issue, I need someone from the Data
Center to help represent our puzzlement to the campus.

Ralph

[Text of Gorin to Street 7 December 88 0036 PST Omitted]
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To: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>
Cc: gq.vvn@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU, gd.why@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU,
        au.rmb@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: reprieve for rec.humor 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Dec 88 15:37:41 -0800.
             <12452622370.151.G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU> 
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 88 17:22:05 PST
From: Phil Fernandez <philf@lindy.Stanford.EDU>


Ralph --

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Very well said.  Since I've stuck my
head into this pretty far, I'd volunteer with John's approval to help
from the Data Center point of view.

pmf
Mail-From: G.GORIN created at  7-Dec-88 19:52:32
Date: Wed 7 Dec 88 19:52:32-PST
From: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: reprieve for rec.humor 
To: philf@LINDY.STANFORD.EDU
cc: g.gorin@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU
In-Reply-To: Message from "Phil Fernandez <philf@lindy.Stanford.EDU>" of Wed 7 Dec 88 17:21:50-PST
Message-ID: <12452668763.151.G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>

Thanks for volunteering.  It's so much nicer than having to draft you.

I'm planning to start with a conversation with Michael Jackson and
also with whomever chairs the minority affairs committee (I probably
have the committe name slightly garbled...).   Basically, to discuss
the issues and to explore with them appropriate steps to take in January.

Want to join these meetings?  They're not calendared yet.

Ralph
-------
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To: Ralph Gorin <G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: reprieve for rec.humor 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Dec 88 19:52:32 -0800.
             <12452668763.151.G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU> 
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 88 22:58:44 PST
From: Phil Fernandez <philf@lindy.Stanford.EDU>

Yes, I'd like to participate.  Thanks, I guess..

pmf
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Date:      Thu,  8 Dec 88 08:06:10 PST
To:        g.gorin@lear.stanford.edu
From:      "Rick Biedenweg" <AU.RMB@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: reprieve for rec.humor

REPLY TO 12/07/88 15:42 FROM G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU "Ralph Gorin": reprieve
for rec.humor

Thanks Ralph,

I like your position much better!

Rick
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Date:      Thu,  8 Dec 88 21:00:21 PST
To:        g.gorin@lear.stanford.edu
From:      "John Sack" <GQ.VVN@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: reprieve for rec.humor

REPLY TO 12/07/88 15:42 FROM G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU "Ralph Gorin": reprieve
for rec.humor

Ralph,

Thanks for taking this up.  As I hope you heard me say at the VP
staff meeting, even if the decision is already made, discussion of
this kind of topic is really valuable; as you say, it is really
intrinsic to the University.

I've spoken with Don Slaughter (the SDC SAO) about working with you
on this for the SDC.  I hired Don because of his background in
community action and employee relations; I think he can contribute
his skills here, as well as his own feelings on the topic.  I'm
really pleased to get him involved in this kind of thing.  I am
also pleased that Phil has volunteered for this work, and am
looking forward to what you three come up with.  Please consult me
as you think it would be helpful to you.

Perhaps we can not only facilitate others learning something here,
but learn something as well ourselves.

John

To:  G.GORIN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU
cc:  AU.RMB, GG.PMF, GD.WHY
-------